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Still without a first print Tunnels & Trolls
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tfm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:28 am    Post subject: Still without a first print Tunnels & Trolls Reply with quote

I won this auction the other day:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180460415513&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

Look what the jerk off sent me:



This guy know a lot about T&T, so I can only imagine he was jerking us off.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T&T is outside of my realm of understanding. I am guessing that is not authentic? If not, that is a bummer. Seller definitely knew what he was doing. Good feedback so far to boot.
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Mars
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The seller is the guy who runs Outlaw Press so he does know better. Although he has taken a lot of flack lately for his publishing practices:

http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/outlaw-press-aka-jim-shipman-is-a-big-crook/

I'm pretty sure he does have an original obtained from Ken. I'm guessing he didn't like the sale price? Did you get a refund or is he trying to keep your money?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

he sent me a repro of this for free when I won a couple of the zine auctions, its the same cover but white glossy paper with and Outlaw add on the back.. so i had assumed it was real.. ie it doesn't look the same..
its minty, which always gets me worried (with some of my zines its the same) generally these things were made to be played not collected.. you know how that goes...

Brette:)
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tfm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The typeface on the cover text doesn't match. It looks new. I've filed with ebay, so we'll see what happens. I hope he didn't second chance offer David and Bill.
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gregnorakk
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(hi, new here, attention drawn from Trollhalla)
Sorry that this happened to you. Shipman's become notorious and really can't seem to stop himself from ripping people off. We've been trying to get word out around the web about him (with some success - the link to myx's blog post is an excellent snapshot summary of an ongoing problem)
Please do report this/him to any and all agencies you deem appropriate.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tfm wrote:
The typeface on the cover text doesn't match. It looks new. I've filed with ebay, so we'll see what happens. I hope he didn't second chance offer David and Bill.


He pretty clearly committed the auction to the original and not a reproduction. Let us know how it works out.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm sorry he's doing this to you Kynan. I hope you get your money back and he gets his just reward. by the way i did not get a second chance offer...
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tfm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. They'll be another one of these days. I'm glad you didn't get hosed too. Ebay/Paypal should cover me, but stranger things have happened. I always use the cc for that kind of thing anyway, and I get two billing statements with them.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i last spoke to my c/c company, they said I had 180 days (it was half a year as I remember) to do the chargeback.. it was significantly more than Paypal anyway..

Brette:)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see our friend has changed his ebay name again, from selling4u2 to ebawiz10.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't people go to jail for this sort of fraud anymore? Sorry for the obtuse thought, but certain behaviour deserves this.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll see. I asked ebay if they would the forward the matter to law enforcement. I got their pat response, "That will be up to Trust and Safety," which to me sounds like code for no. Well, I'm going to let ebay conclude the matter and then I'm going to pay a visit to our local office of the FBI. Fraud is a crime, but law enforcement will not act if no one tells. I will. I have the time and the inclination.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mars wrote:
The seller is the guy who runs Outlaw Press so he does know better. Although he has taken a lot of flack lately for his publishing practices:


A bit of flack for his publishing practices? He's used artwork without permission from numerous artists, including pieces which are the property of Games Workshop, Wizards of the Coast, and NBC-Universal productions. He has already been hit in the past for plagiarism, by illegally reproducing the contents of a Dungeon Magazine adventure, then reprinting them with T&T statblocks. He has offered for sale a game (Mazes and Minotaurs) which was made freely available on the internet by it's creator. And now this, which is certainly criminal fraud. James Shipman is a crook.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck getting your money back, or the original copy. Presumably, you prefer the original. I certainly would! But, what a mess.

Congratulations on the win. I was yelling at the wall when I got home and found my snipe didn't even take effect because I underestimated the value. I can only imagine how frustrating it is to win it, pay, and get something else in the mail.

I also don't have much patience for mail fraud and hope you can nail this guy. And, I have found that it can be remarkably effective to photo document opening a package and also have someone witness the opening of a suspect package. (I had someone send an empty box of peanuts instead of one of the limited edition dm screens last year!) I found that a sworn statement from a third party goes a very long way in getting postal inspectors and law enforcement to pay attention. Most of the time they don't have actual evidence to work with but most of them shop on ebay too and have had their own bad experiences that fuel their willingness to work with you.

Too bad he didn't offer this to me, as I would forward the emails as evidence. I had bought some of the items he sold in December, but I actually got what I paid for.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I received this email from Aaron Leeder (Nobleknight) today:



Hi Kynan,
I heard you had some problems with this guy so I thought I'd forward you
this as well. If you could post it any place where its being discussed that
is convenient for you I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Aaron

Hello,

As you might imagine, over the years Noble Knight Games has received the
occassional complaint regarding manufacturers practices, from unpaid
employees to disgruntled business partners, etc, regarding many different
issues. I'm not a mediator or a lawyer, however, I have always lived up to
our name and tried to do what is right. Outlaw Press seems to be involved
in a widespread controversy over a large number of their products. Before
this issue became clear, in mid November 2009, Rick Loomis of Flying Buffalo
(someone who I have done business for years and trust) told me they
reprinted a few of his books without his permission. This information along
with a complaint in the past told me something wasn't right. I immediately
notified Outlaw Press that we would not be doing ANY further business with
them. Since then, to my dismay, the problems scope expanded and I have
heard from a few other alledged copyright holders who have issues with OP's
practices. Some have asked me for copies of the books at cost (which I
provided), or with their blessing to try and recoup our expenses on the
remaining stock (typically just one copy of each title), and one party who
insisted we destroy our remaining stock of a product in question (I did). I
have furthermore reduced all of our remaining stock to cost (even the few
used copies that came in trades).
If any of the related parties have any specific problems or requests
regarding this matter please forward them to me personally at
nobleknight@nobleknight.com

Best Regards,
Aaron Leeder (Owner)

Noble Knight Games
"Where the Out-of-Print is Available Again"
http://www.nobleknight.com
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CLBeilby wrote:
A bit of flack for his publishing practices?


I'm not saying the flack is undeserved. Over the past year or two I have tracked down a few authors who didn't know that Outlaw Press was publishing their material. There are a number more items that I am pretty sure he never had authority publish as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about Bob Liddil?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tfm wrote:
What about Bob Liddil?


Bob Liddil was one of the authors that I contacted about his work being reproduced. Outlaw Press was selling reproductions of the Dimensions & Doors book. When I asked Shipman, he said that he though Bob had passed on - not that it means he would then have the right to publish his stuff. So I sent an email to Bob about it. I think Bob came to some arrangement after the fact.

There are a few items such as Arcane Archives by Paul Creelman that I'm sure he never tracked down the author and asked permission to republish.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ebay closed the case in my favor today and I received a full refund. For future reference, Paypal is much more professional in handling claims than ebay. I would recommend that route in the future.
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