Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Last Visit: 21 Sep 2010 Posts: 802 Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject:
How about a 1st edition Tunnels & Trolls with the Unicorn Cover (1975)?
I have never seen one or even seen one for sale. Does anyone have one or know someone who does? _________________ "Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see."
"Yes . . . it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation."
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject:
Anyone see any of those Jade Hare covers the past couple of years. Also, the tan Character Archaic has to be scary rare. I might even place the full sized Dwarven Glory in this group. _________________
Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Last Visit: 22 Mar 2020 Posts: 4574 Location: In the House of the Cosmic Frog
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:12 am Post subject:
The 1st printing of Dwarven Glory (3 bullets) certainly. The 2nd DG(4 bullets w/combat sheet) certainly, the 3rd DG (4 bullets w/o combat sheet and with one bullet crossed out) certainly. Jade Hare w/cover certainly. Daystar West Pharaoh certainly. Each of those had a print run. The special copies of the Ghost Tower and Lost Tamoachan (DM, Staff, Design) are very, very rare, but they were so from the word go and don't fit the multiple production qualifier of your question (or do they?). I'd say a Palace of the Vampire Queen (black folder) with originally printed sheets fits the bill. The 1st Greyhawk without the price change is also very rare, but it's not a different printing from the marked 1st Greyhawk (same plates printed at the same time), but it is a different release.
How many were you thinking of as the starting point? 50? a 100? 500? 5? _________________ "This is cool."
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:26 am Post subject:
Hmmm. Do you mean starting point in production? Difficult to say. Some items were distributed by entirely different means which lent themselves to their rarity methinks. Some handed out at conventions (DM copies), some sold at cons (planescape sketchbook), some stopped at the point of distribution (orange B3), etc. _________________
Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Last Visit: 22 Mar 2020 Posts: 4574 Location: In the House of the Cosmic Frog
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:31 am Post subject:
If the point of production muddies the question, then we should probably ask it in terms of known copies. That makes assembling a list a little easier. In my mind, the really rare stuff has 5 or less copies known to exist. How many specific items fit that bill? _________________ "This is cool."
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:38 am Post subject:
Less than 5 known to exist would be a good qualifier. Especially if they were produced in multiple quantities. I am quite curious about some other items besides TSR. I am not as well versed in those.
Here is a random question I have....
Anyone know how Jade Hare w/cover were distributed? _________________
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:59 am Post subject:
I have been trying to think of other publisher rpg items that could be considered amongst the mightiest rarities. But it seems as if everytime you think you have an item pegged, the publisher or author turns up with a horde of them in their possession. Wilmark Dynasty would be a great example.
Mars' Ebenezer's Will is definitely crazy rare. I am curious as to how he found it and if he thinks there are more. I search for one religiously for between 3-4 years....nada. And it was definitely sold as the official convention game that year of Michicon/Wintercon much the same way Tsojconth and Inverness were, as example. There is no reason to believe they didn't make a batch of 300 of these like the others. _________________
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Last Visit: 21 Sep 2010 Posts: 802 Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:10 am Post subject:
Read the essay in Heroic Worlds pages 233-234 by Ken St. Andre. The 1st edition Tunnels & Trolls had only 100 copies printed and these were distributed at Arizona State University in 1975 for $2.00 each . . .
How many could possibly still be around? _________________ "Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see."
"Yes . . . it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation."
Last edited by Beyondthebreach on Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Last Visit: 21 Sep 2010 Posts: 802 Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:33 am Post subject:
scribe wrote:
Anyone know how Jade Hare w/cover were distributed?
Jade Hare with cover was not distributed. To all appearances, it is a pre-production "demo" item.
I actually have thought about this module quite a bit and this is what I think to be a likely scenario:
- Sometime around 1989, it is realized that the "old" Classic D&D "BECMI" rules are on their way out - to be replaced by a new "Basic" (that's "non-Advanced") system. In order to separate the Basic game from the Advanced, the emphasis will again be put on attracting "New" players to D&D.
-A project idea is put forth for Jade Hare and assigned item number 9259. This is significant as even though product numbers aren't always sequential with the order in which a product is released, it usually signifies when the item number was set aside to be used. Thus, even though Jade Hare has a release date of 1992, the product code of 9259 would put it somewhere around 1989. The final two Basic Modules, B11 King's Festival is 9260 and B12 Queen's Harvest is 9261. (Incidentally, John Nephew came on the staff around 1988/1989, though he may not have been involved with the initial stages. )
- In 1991, the Rules Cyclopedia is released which is a compilation and revision of the Classic D&D rules. Also in that year, the Dungeons & Dragons "Easy to Master" game is released. The new Dungeons & Dragons title design is present on these two items. Also in that year, DDA3 Eye of Traldar and DDA4 The Dymrak Dread are released as Basic modules that can be played with either the Dungeons & Dragons Game or the Rules Cyclopedia, though they appear to just be items TSR is using to fill space until they come up with a different system of basic adventures to support their new design.
- I imagine that Jade Hare is done as a "demo" at this time for consideration. It is an 8 page module with a $3.95 price (extremely cheap!). The outer cover is bare of information, contains no summary, UPC or details on the back cover and bare information of the front cover. It represents the idea of "Dragon Master". It can be surmised that Dragon Master would be a potential product line of short, inexpensive modules designed to be compatible with the new basic Dungeons & Dragons game.
- Likely at the same time, alternate ideas were being floated and the one that is put into production is the Boxed Modules which contain 3 separate 16 page adventures done without a cover (but including standup figures and a map board). These become Goblin's Lair, Dragon's Den and The Haunted Tower. (one can search catalogs to find pre-production pics of these and even an alternate title for Haunted Tower - though off the top of my head I can't recall . . . )
- At this point, either TSR already had printed many copies of Jade Hare booklets or they simply decided to print a bunch afterwards . . .either way, the intention was to give them away free at this point. Coverless was okay as this was the system they went with for the boxed modules anyway.
- In a conversation with a previous owner of this item, it was relayed to me that a friend of his was an employee with Wizards of the Coast. They had a big "clearing" out of old inventory and his friend brought back the Jade Hare with cover which was then passed on to him. _________________ "Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see."
"Yes . . . it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation."
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:10 am Post subject:
This Jade Hare was a relatively recent product at TSR. I wonder if anyone around would know who/what/why/when/where regarding this item. _________________
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Last Visit: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 102
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:46 am Post subject:
Beyondthebreach wrote:
Jade Hare with cover was not distributed. To all appearances, it is a pre-production "demo" item.
*nods*. Was my understanding, too, and why I kept trying to nudge it off the Acaeum list.
=
Eh... re. the question in general: TSR & associated, non-TSR D&D, any RPG, related 'zines?
Some items which y'think might be common are actually extremely scarce; e.g. FASA's High Passage #1: whereas #3 rates a couple of dollars, the last #1 went for $500+ and has a large number of Traveller fans - mostly very quietly - seeking out a copy. Space Gamer #1 has a similar blip - not just on the sad (IMHO) "#1 = big bucks" mentality, but also on genuine rarity. White Wolf #1 is a more recent example... Any of those make Wyrm's Footnotes #1 appear "common" although that's stated to have had a 200 print run (OK, that's almost into the "5 and under" category with the extra counters still attached, perhaps?).
Heh... "any copy of Domesday Book apart from #13"?
(OK, I guess even #13 is a lil' bit more rare than an orange B3 )
More seriously, though, I think the reverse might also apply, alas; for example, the DMG with MM pages. Those will come out of the woodwork, no doubt, and even if it remains an extreme rarity the final count is likely to be well beyond that "5" marker.
Mhmm... liking the look of Mars's "Ebenezer's Will", above. Nice one there.
aside: Does anyone actually even have a /date/ for Crown of the Summerlands. Very early for AD&D, I'd've thought: not just for lack of DMG refs but also for the JG Chronicle Cards stuffed inside my copy?
And there are several JG items falling into that "less than 5 known" at present, with a few "uniques" at present for what should've been mass produced items/components.
On the more generic side, I still haven't seen another copy of Draken/Necromancer's "Quests for Adventurers" and even relatively "common" UK items such as Scale Design's "The Standing Stones" are probably going to be struggling to break into double figures on a tally within the limits of the collecting community.
Re. Character Archaic; I'm still in the dark as to the nature of that other horizontal format character sheet. Would have thought it might have been closer to the later (tan) print owing to the format but the only copy found so far was with an incomplete set of Greyhawk Reference sheets... by association right back towards the 1st/2nd CA timeframe. (1st CA is a <5, of course, too). There are other character sheets in that one/one pad only known category; mass-produced even if not all publicly released - Tim Kask's auctions had at least a couple of those.
tfm wrote:
The 1st Greyhawk without the price change is also very rare, but it's not a different printing from the marked 1st Greyhawk (same plates printed at the same time), but it is a different release.
Do you know of another copy, out of interest?
On 1sts, add in 1st Rahasia too, I guess. :)
There are still a few items with zero known confirmed copies. That's plenty rare enough for me.
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject:
harami wrote:
Beyondthebreach wrote:
Jade Hare with cover was not distributed. To all appearances, it is a pre-production "demo" item.
*nods*. Was my understanding, too, and why I kept trying to nudge it off the Acaeum list.
Interesting. We are gonna query John Nephew directly for more information. Perhaps after Gen Con is over as I am sure they are busy with the goings on there. If it is a demo item, there have to be at least 3 of them in existence that I am aware of. Lets say there were a dozen or two printed. I think that at the very least qualifies the item in comparison to some other collectible editions, no?
harami wrote:
Heh... "any copy of Domesday Book apart from #13"?
(OK, I guess even #13 is a lil' bit more rare than an orange B3 )
More seriously, though, I think the reverse might also apply, alas; for example, the DMG with MM pages. Those will come out of the woodwork, no doubt, and even if it remains an extreme rarity the final count is likely to be well beyond that "5" marker.
None of the Domesday that I have personally seen. It was spoken about A LOT in later issues of IFW newsletters that I have. I would be interested in a count by Frank Metzger's recollection for years of auctioneering as to how many he has seen for auction.
You gotta figure these existing copies would have seen the light of day decades ago as they would easily would have considered desirable collectibles even in the 80s. The stature of the early convention auctions would have inspired the unearthing of most of them it would seem. All of course speculation and likely to be proven otherwise.
The DMG items are very interesting in this discussion. This is a case where a rarity becomes so because it is often hidden in plain view, even amongst the collectible community. When you have a B3 orange, there is no mistaken when one does a very minor bit of research.
harami wrote:
Mhmm... liking the look of Mars's "Ebenezer's Will", above. Nice one there.
aside: Does anyone actually even have a /date/ for Crown of the Summerlands. Very early for AD&D, I'd've thought: not just for lack of DMG refs but also for the JG Chronicle Cards stuffed inside my copy?
And there are several JG items falling into that "less than 5 known" at present, with a few "uniques" at present for what should've been mass produced items/components.
You have a Crown of Summerlands? This would make 3 confirmed copies that I know of. I need to add this item to the archives yet (along with a few other things )
Here is what I have so far in my notes courtesy of T McDuffie....
Mcduff's Keep wrote:
Crown of the Summerlands
Author: Shawn Williams
Date: undated
Publisher: none listed
Remarks: AD&D convention adventure. Signed by author.
Condition: Good
If you do have this item, David. Could you please post it to the research forums with full stats? If this was in a tourney around Detroit I am betting it could have been WinterCon, MichiCon, or NovaCon as starters for research.
harami wrote:
On the more generic side, I still haven't seen another copy of Draken/Necromancer's "Quests for Adventurers" and even relatively "common" UK items such as Scale Design's "The Standing Stones" are probably going to be struggling to break into double figures on a tally within the limits of the collecting community.
Do you have Quests for Adventurers?
We also have a bit of info on Standing Stones for the archive. This was an early submission to the site before the RF were implemented. I will need more information on it but until then I just have a bit. It was produced by one of the editors of the Beholder zine. I would bet there should be more than a few still around waiting to be unearthed.
harami wrote:
Re. Character Archaic; I'm still in the dark as to the nature of that other horizontal format character sheet. Would have thought it might have been closer to the later (tan) print owing to the format but the only copy found so far was with an incomplete set of Greyhawk Reference sheets... by association right back towards the 1st/2nd CA timeframe. (1st CA is a <5, of course, too). There are other character sheets in that one/one pad only known category; mass-produced even if not all publicly released - Tim Kask's auctions had at least a couple of those.
I am of no knowledgeable authority on these. Especially as I do not even own one. Please consider adding your notes on this item in the RF.
harami wrote:
On 1sts, add in 1st Rahasia too, I guess. :)
There are still a few items with zero known confirmed copies. That's plenty rare enough for me.
God! How does one compare the rarity of two printings of Rahasia? lol For years I didn't even see one for sale. Now two printings?
There are quite a few items from Heroic Worlds with no known copies to exist. It would be interesting to generate a list. My theory is that Lawrence Schick had access to TSR's library when working on his data. TSR got lots of stuff in the mail as submission for possibly publication and review in the Dragon. It would guess they picked up stuff at convention too. So it is possible there were beta copies in the library that were presented as printed in mass in Heroic Worlds. _________________
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Last Visit: 30 Aug 2023 Posts: 891 Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:15 am Post subject:
scribe wrote:
There are quite a few items from Heroic Worlds with no known copies to exist. It would be interesting to generate a list. My theory is that Lawrence Schick had access to TSR's library when working on his data. TSR got lots of stuff in the mail as submission for possibly publication and review in the Dragon. It would guess they picked up stuff at convention too. So it is possible there were beta copies in the library that were presented as printed in mass in Heroic Worlds.
This is what I suspect as well. HW lists a different version of Catapult Run by Fantasy Factory that I have not been able to find. I talked with one of the authors and he does not recall any such version either. HW also misses some different printings too (which reminds me, I should add Midkemia Press stuff next).
I've also been looking for The Standing Stones for a while but haven't been able to find one. Anyone have any of the other Nicholas Scales books?
As far as rarity goes, I think a first edition Ysgarth from 1978 or 1979 must be crazy rare as well - I've never seen one. I have no idea of the print run size for any of the Ragnarok stuff either but they must be low.
I forget what I was searching for when I found "Ebenezer's Will" but it was just by chance. I think I picked it up in Sept 2006 so it wasn't all that long ago either. It certainly does seem like it was produced for sale at the con with the cover price on it but with the comparative rarity to Fazzlewood, maybe the print run was even smaller. Tri Tac also produced about a half dozen tournament modules that are ridiculously hard to find too - the print run on these was 100.
If I get some time tomorrow, I will put together a list of nonTSR rares (ones where I think less than 5 are around) and we can do a bit of a poll to see who has a copy or if there are any of them out there.
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:51 am Post subject:
Here is what I have on Uncle Ebenezer's Will from an archive page not yet released. The official update and release will contain Mark's information found in the research forums.
Quote:
Uncle Ebenezer's Will wasn't necessarily printed by the folks of MDG but it was officially sanctioned by MDG and openly advertised with a full page spread on the inside back of the outer cover of the Michicon 9 program, 1980. Obviously, this one was not a TSR adventure but 1980 marks one of the first years MDG didn't produce a TSR reprint.
"Players venture into the cavern stronghold of their dead uncle. They have two hours to carry out as much treasure as they can find. It seems easy enough...."
Also, one of people associated with Tri Tac Games is still kicking about. I should try to look him up again to see if knows anything about those mods. _________________
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Last Visit: 30 Aug 2023 Posts: 891 Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:35 am Post subject:
scribe wrote:
Also, one of people associated with Tri Tac Games is still kicking about. I should try to look him up again to see if knows anything about those mods.
I talked to a couple of Tri Tac people not too long ago. Rich Tucholka actually had a heart attack earlier this year. I asked him about these tournies late last year but he didn't have any around. I have "You Gotta Have Bart" and I think McDuff has "Krish Home" and "Gem Sword" and maybe "Tarot Quest". There are a couple more that I can't remember off the top of my head. A fanzine that ran for over 100 issues called Dark Times was also produced but I have never seen any issues.
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject:
Ah, that is too bad about Richard. Does he still sell? I bought is chainmail head covering a few years back. I get razzed by a business associate about that after the time I showed it to him. He threatens to reveal it to clients frequently when he feels the need to blackmail me. What can I say? He has got me on that one.
This is the only item of the three that you mention from Tim's data that he has made available to the Tome. Of course, it doesn't mean he doesn't own those. The publisher if Krish Home is listed as Darkfawn Dungeons. Is this the same as Tri Tac? None of these are listed in Heroic Worlds.
Quote:
Krish Home
Author: none listed
Date: undated
Publisher: Darkfawn Dungeons
Remarks: Generic adventure
Condition: Ex+
He does have this Tri Tac item from 1991. A macho women with guns parody....
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